From Alaska Fishing Boats to Circumnavigating the Globe: Heidi Brown's Year Aboard the Clipper Race

Astoria Oregon's Heidi Brown spent a year racing around the world as amateur crew on the Clipper Round the World Yacht Race — an 11-month, eight-leg circumnavigation aboard a 70-foot racing sailboat. 

In this episode of Women of the Northwest, Heidi shares how a chance sailing lesson in 2018 led her from the waters of Alaska to the Southern Ocean, the Panama Canal, and a dozen ports across six continents. 

She talks candidly about living with 20 crewmates at sea for 30 days at a time, facing 45-knot storms in the Bay of Biscay, swimming with dolphins and sharks, and the leadership and team-building lessons that came from navigating both the ocean and the people on board. 

It's a story about stepping outside your comfort zone, learning to be "nice, not spicy" under pressure, and discovering that fear fades the moment you decide to just do the thing.

https://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/

My Instagram Handle: @hb_rctid

https://windwardleader.com/

  Subscribe to the Women of the Northwest podcast for inspiring stories and adventures.
Find me on my website: jan-johnson.com

Transcript

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[00:00] Jan: Welcome, everybody. So glad you're here. Today I have Brett Knight with me, and we are going to join into a conversation that I don't think we normally have.

[00:11] Brett: Well, it's great to be here.

[00:14] Jan: Yes, yes. And so great to have you. He's a criminal defense and recovery pastor. He's an author. And just so much knowledge and things that I think will help us, whether we have a family member or somebody that we know that's going through things, or maybe we don't even.

[00:32] And we just don't. We have questions about how we can be helpful and whatever. But Brett, let's, let's start out with your testimony. Give me a little background on who you are and, and what your walk with God's been like.

[00:45] Brett: Okay? Absolutely. And, you know, and, and we, we sat here today as, as we're recording this and, and you mentioned, you know, being a criminal defense attorney and a, and you mentioned being a recovery pastor and you mentioned being an author.

[00:56] And I can tell you, 10 years ago, no, not 10, 15 years ago, I don't know that I would have believed any of that would be true. I don't, I don't think I would have.

[01:05] I would have called any of this. And I know 30 years ago and 40 years ago, and I'm 54 years old as we record this, I can tell you a 14 year old Brett would never have thought one that would be sitting on a thing called the Internet talking or that I would be any of those things that you just described.

[01:23] It was never my intention any of those, but clearly it was God's intention the whole way. And looking back, and I think, as so many people can, I can look back over my life and I could see God's fingerprints all over it and his guidance and his path all over it.

[01:37] But luckily for me, he didn't let me in on the plan.

[01:40] And so I was as surprised as anybody. And God keeps the plans away from me because he knows I have a tendency to meddle.

[01:48] And so I want to put my hands in even my own plan. I often figure it's kind of like I'm driving down the road and I've given the Lord the wheel to drive and.

[01:57] And then I start recognizing scenery and I'm thinking, oh, I think I know where we're going. Let me drive for a while, you know, and then we end up in a ditch and I'm upside down and I'm like, okay, you go ahead and drive again.

[02:06] Jan: So you got this better than I.

[02:08] Brett: Yeah, maybe you got this better Than me. I'll just sit over here and just enjoy the ride.

[02:13] But to give a short version to a long life, that's.

[02:18] I was born in the state of Kansas,

[02:21] but when I was very young as a child, we moved to Illinois. So I really grew up in the. In a coal mine community of the southern part of Illinois.

[02:30] And so that's where I grew up. That's where I went to school, that's where I graduated from. And until I was a,

[02:36] you know,

[02:36] a grown man quite a few years later, that's where I resided at.

[02:41] And we were, you know, we grew up in a. In a. In a poorer community,

[02:45] one that was rural coal mine. And then during an era when a lot of coal mines were closing down, so there was a lot of economic hardship in our. In our community.

[02:53] And, and even amongst a poor community,

[02:55] my family was poor. We. We were the ones that even the poor people looked at and said, well, man, they're. They're poor. Um, you know, we didn't have. We didn't have walls inside the.

[03:05] Inside walls inside of our house. All we had was like the insulation up between the studs, and that was, that was our walls.

[03:11] I remember getting running water when I was in high school, and I graduated high school in 1990. Most people had running water by then, but we, we seem to be a little behind the times, and we didn't get that.

[03:22] And until I was in high school, and I.

[03:25] Jan: You're laughing about it now, but maybe not so much then, huh?

[03:29] Brett: Well, maybe. But, you know, it was one of those things where I knew I was poor. I knew that my clothes were more raggedy than the other people I went to school with.

[03:37] But I will say this, and this actually changed a perspective in my life.

[03:41] I had a very good childhood.

[03:44] I was happy.

[03:45] My parents loved me.

[03:47] I will say I wasn't raised in a church, you know, so I didn't get that influence until later on in life. But my parents loved me and they did the best that they could,

[03:55] and we had happy childhood. It's one of those things where I look back even at pictures of me with my cutoff shorts and no shirt on and no shoes on, running around in the.

[04:05] In the dirt road, but I always had this huge smile on my face, you know, so even then, you know, we were, we were, we were being satisfied as kids to, to be happy.

[04:15] And I grew up and, and as oftentimes happens in, in high school,

[04:19] in college, a couple. A couple men spoke into my life.

[04:23] And, and part of a big part of my testimony is the power of planting seeds into people's lives.

[04:29] There was a couple, they saw something in me that I could not see and, and began to speak life into me about, you know, Brett, you should run for student council because you're a natural leader.

[04:40] People want to follow what you have to say. And I remember thinking, what in the world is he talking about? I don't even know what that means.

[04:46] And, and then in, in college, you know, a professor kind of picked me out and he, he saw that I had some ability to understand complex things and explain them in a, in a simple way and began to train me up in understanding concepts like what's the best way for groups of people to,

[05:03] to make decisions?

[05:05] And, and I graduated with a political science degree and went on to work for a management consulting company where I traveled all over the US for about four years, training managers in big industries.

[05:16] And.

[05:17] But then,

[05:19] you know, as I, as I began to see success,

[05:22] that became a problem for me. And it became a problem because it was this thing that I began to re. Identify myself.

[05:30] I began to say, I can remake what everybody thinks I am.

[05:34] They saw me as this poor boy who didn't have many opportunities, but I can read and understand things quickly and I can do these things. I can stand up in front of people.

[05:44] Even though in, in second, third, fourth and fifth grade I was going to special classes because I had a speech impediment.

[05:51] I had learned to get up in front of people and speak. It was part of, you know, overcoming that.

[05:56] And so as I pursued success,

[05:59] unfortunately my, my family life began to fall apart. I had a young child at home,

[06:05] and then eventually a second child at home, but I was gone all the time. I was never home. I was flying out on Monday mornings, I wasn't coming home till Friday night.

[06:14] I spent Saturday catching up on my laundry and getting my notes ready for the next weekend.

[06:20] And then I was gone again.

[06:21] And so my family fell apart.

[06:25] You know, my, my brother, who I was the closest with, he died in a tragic car accident. Suddenly my parents couldn't handle that grief associated with losing a child.

[06:35] And they. Their 30 year marriage ended. And so I felt like this whole world of mine was beginning to fall apart all of a sudden.

[06:43] And I had,

[06:45] I had years before come to know the Lord.

[06:49] But when I ran into this struggle, I realized something. I realized something that would take me years later to fully understand.

[06:56] I chased after the Lord like I chased after my business knowledge.

[07:01] I absorbed this information about God and I absorbed this knowledge about God. Original language. Yeah, but exactly. You're tapping your chest there. I was about 14 inches off target.

[07:13] I was landing it right here in the middle of my brain, but it wasn't landing right here in my heart. And what happens is, is that when you store all this information about God in your head and then you hit a bump in your road, it tends to bounce right out of your ears.

[07:27] And that's what happened with me when my brother passed away. When my family's falling apart on every level,

[07:34] I just let that knowledge of God fall out of my head.

[07:37] And then. So for years, I just kept pursuing success. I just kept pursuing every opportunity to make a name for myself.

[07:45] And I kind of left God behind.

[07:47] But the good news is that as I left God behind, He never left me behind.

[07:51] And years later,

[07:53] years later,

[07:54] that yearning, that yearning for what I was missing kept calling me. And I answered that call along the way of chasing after my own identity. I had a really successful career in the IT industry.

[08:06] I worked for an aircraft manufacturer for years,

[08:09] managing their IT department,

[08:11] went on to law school,

[08:13] became a prosecutor for the state of Tennessee, where I prosecuted criminal cases.

[08:17] And then right about then,

[08:19] that call, that call back in my heart came back.

[08:23] And that instead of the knowledge of God, it was this relationship with God that I began to yearn for.

[08:31] And that. That grew and grew over the years into a calling into ministry and a calling into to preaching and being a pastor.

[08:39] And it.

[08:41] As it changed the inside of me, it changed everything outside of me as well.

[08:46] I often use an illustration when I'm preaching that you've got to receive God's love.

[08:50] It's like flipping the top of your head open and you just let God just keep pouring in love, and eventually it just pours out.

[08:56] Eventually, he fills you up. He doesn't run out. You know, that's the. That's the great thing about God's love. He doesn't run out. And so it just pours out. And so if you allow him to fill you with his love, everywhere you go, you're going to pour that same love out on everybody that you encounter.

[09:11] And so that's, you know, that's. I know that sounds like a long version, but that's really the quick version of how I end up in ministry and as an attorney and in the position that I'm in.

[09:23] It's been a long,

[09:25] curvy road along the way,

[09:27] but God has been faithful.

[09:29] Jan: He doesn't give up on us, does He?

[09:31] Brett: He does not. And. And. And I. And I am Very thankful that he doesn't, because it. I would have given up on me. And probably at times I did give up on me, but he never gave up on me.

[09:41] And he continued to call me, he continued to pursue after me until I.

[09:46] Until I stopped and let him catch me.

[09:49] Sometimes, you know, we'll say, you know, I found the Lord, and that's okay expression, but truly, he found me. He found me and pursued me. He chased me down. He chased me down until, you know, he caught me.

[10:01] Jan: He'll never give up. Yeah. How is what you've experienced of God's grace molded how you react to the people that you work with?

[10:11] Brett: Yeah, grace is such a key part of what I do.

[10:16] Working in recovery ministry, working with people who are in active addiction, working with people who are coming out of traumatic events like sexual abuse and physical abuse and things of that nature.

[10:27] There's a balance.

[10:29] But grace is the most important component of that.

[10:32] You see, accountability is fine. And I'll talk about accountability a lot. Like in my book, I.

[10:38] We need accountability. We need boundaries. We need things of that nature.

[10:43] But accountability without grace becomes.

[10:47] It becomes harsh, and it becomes abusive sometimes, at times, and it doesn't rebuild people back up. But when you add grace into it, accountability has a. As a place to land.

[10:57] It has a place to go,

[10:59] and it has a purpose to redeem people. And so when your accountability is coupled with grace, and all of a sudden you have a purpose, and that purpose is to redeem individuals.

[11:09] But grace, you know, grace speaks to.

[11:12] Grace doesn't ignore our past, but it speaks to our future.

[11:15] And that's where it really intersects with what I do.

[11:19] You know,

[11:20] we don't have to forget where we've come from, even bad things that we've come through. But we have to understand that grace says it doesn't identify where our future is and where we're going.

[11:30] And so that's the first thing. And sometimes one of the most difficult things to get people who've lost.

[11:35] Who've lost their identity,

[11:37] to get them to understand is that there's grace for the things that we have done. And that grace redefines us and actually pulls us back to our original definition, strips off what the world has called us, and brings us back to that original definition of who we are and the identity that we walk in.

[11:55] Jan: Yeah.

[11:57] What have you seen? I mean, you've worked with a lot of people.

[12:01] What have you seen?

[12:03] Is there, like, a pattern of what the root of addiction is that you've seen?

[12:08] Brett: Yeah. You know, and I can't say that I've,

[12:11] I've walked a lot of people with a lot of people through recovery. Back in July, I did a calculation, you know, just through like my law practice as far as taking people out of jail and courtroom experiences and putting them into long term recovery.

[12:23] And we were at 187 people, people that we've been able to walk with and put into these kind of programs. And that doesn't count the people I've come in contact with through ministry as well.

[12:33] So there's literally been hundreds of men's men and women that I've walked with. But, but yes, absolutely. If you look at that many people and you're paying close attention, you begin to see a pattern emerge.

[12:44] And not saying that there's not outliers along the way,

[12:48] but there is a pattern that you begin to recognize and you begin to anticipate.

[12:52] And that pattern is that. And this is really where my transformation from being an attorney and how that intersected with my being in ministry is that I recognize in the beginning of my career when I didn't understand addiction hardly at all.

[13:09] I really believed as a prosecutor that I could just simply punish people hard enough and they would make a better decision and that they would quit this foolishness.

[13:19] And I really believe that. And I say that I was in ignorance at the time. I didn't know.

[13:24] But as I began to see what was really happening in the cycle of this, I came to an awareness that there's almost always an underlying pain that's associated with addiction and you can't punish that pain away.

[13:38] You can punish the addiction, but you can't punish the pain way out of it. That's not how it's effective. You don't punish pain, you heal pain.

[13:46] And so we have to get into the healing business. Along the way, you could strip the, the, the addiction off of somebody and they could become sober,

[13:54] but that underlying pain is still going to be there, that trauma that, that began this. And so if I were to give an example and I, I, if I close my eyes as I was telling you this pattern that develops, I would, I would begin to see the faces of dozens of people that literally this is their story.

[14:12] You know, if I gave you an example of a young woman, a young girl who at about nine years old began to get abused, began to get sexually abused. And she was sexually and physically abused until she was about 14.

[14:23] And about 14 years old, she began using drugs and alcohol for the first time.

[14:28] And when she used those drugs and alcohol,

[14:30] she was taken to A place where she felt normal.

[14:34] The pain went away enough that she could feel normal,

[14:37] that she could socialize with people, that she could interact with people.

[14:42] And so her brain at that point began to rewire itself and began to remold itself to the, you know, if I want to seek peace, if I want to seek pleasure, if I want to seek feeling normal, then I need this substance.

[14:54] And so that substance became the main focus of her life. It began, it became the lens of which she looked at everything through her relationships, her, her education,

[15:04] her, her, her dealing with her own parents or dealing with, you know, even romantic relationships, dealing with her employment, her job, how she viewed money, how she viewed trust, how she viewed what, who a father is, who a mother is,

[15:17] began to all be seen through this lens. And so this underlying pain was being alleviated by this drugs. The drugs then began to,

[15:26] to take over her life.

[15:29] And then at 40 years old, she finds herself multiple convictions, she finds herself in jail and she finds herself at the bottom of a hole, reaching out, saying I, I want more than this.

[15:41] And that's the situation where I often encounter her. I encounter the 40 year old version of her. Yeah, where she's reaching out for the first time now.

[15:50] And so we begin the process and I, and I know the places to take her and I know the places to go, we know the things to do and we strip off that, those drugs away and she begins getting the ability to see and think and understand things differently.

[16:03] Again that lens is being taken away.

[16:05] However, that underlying pain that led to it, that, that 14 year old girl's pain is still there.

[16:11] And so we have to heal and address that pain, not just the addiction. And that is the pattern.

[16:18] Whether it's a man or a woman,

[16:21] whether it's somebody who's 50 or 40 or 25, when they come to that point of being at the bottom of their hole,

[16:28] often there's this pain that's being numbed and regulated by drugs and alcohol and you have to be able to deal with both.

[16:37] Jan: Yeah.

[16:38] And the advantage of being a person of faith is that you give the real,

[16:48] the new identity and the grace and the love and the restoration and redemption and all of that package which isn't present with non faith based,

[17:02] you know,

[17:03] that's correct. Recovering things, you know, so it's,

[17:06] it's like you have the real answer to everything in the bottom line. And, and I think too a person can sense your peacefulness,

[17:16] your joy,

[17:17] you know, in there. And especially if you're accepting which you are,

[17:21] you know, and Seeing through,

[17:24] I mean,

[17:25] seeing them as a person or somebody's son or daughter or,

[17:30] you know,

[17:31] looking through to their heart of pain, whatever,

[17:35] people will sense that,

[17:36] that you're being authentic with them,

[17:39] which makes a huge difference.

[17:41] Brett: Absolutely. People who have gone through active addiction and are walking in recovery,

[17:46] they're super sharpened because of the environment that they've lived in to recognize fake and to recognize people who are, who are there for their own motives, who are trying to use them and manipulate them.

[17:58] And oftentimes they're very good manipulators themselves. And so you're correct if you're not genuine, if you're not genuine, if you're not willing to walk with them. I often say you can substitute all kinds of things.

[18:09] You can substitute money. I've seen a lot of programs that run off of shoestrings. You can substitute education.

[18:15] I've seen a lot of programs being ran by people with great hearts that don't have the formal education that you might think that they require. Require. But the one thing you cannot substitute is being there,

[18:25] that genuine, authentic being there. And, and they'll see right through it real fast if, if you're trying to get something out of it or if you're not in it for the long haul.

[18:35] And in fact, I, as, I'm oftentimes helping people build up new ministries, working with churches to build up new ministries. I always say the most important thing you have to do is to finish what you say you, what you're beginning.

[18:46] You can't start a jail ministry, and I've helped start several. You can't start up a, a recovery ministry. I helped work with and start up several.

[18:53] You can't do any of that until, you know, heart of hearts. You've been called to do that and you have the commitment to stay from the beginning to the end.

[19:00] Because a lot of these men and women, they've been let down, they've been walked away from, they've had the bridges burned. Sometimes they like to match themselves,

[19:09] but they have had, they've lost those things. You have to show them that in order for them to get something different, that you're going to treat them different and you have to stick with it.

[19:17] Even during the very hard times. And there are very hard times.

[19:20] There's some amazing highs when people graduate and you see them and people contact me and they're having their first babies and they're buying their first houses years later. And I even had a young lady whose husband I walked through recovery years ago and they were having they got married,

[19:36] they're having their first child,

[19:38] and, and she's going to the hospital to deliver this child. They had it scheduled, you know,

[19:44] to deliver this child. And she stops off at my law office on her way to the hospital and she comes in and she's like, where's Pastor Brett? And they're like, he's still in court.

[19:53] He's got, he got hung up in court. She's like, ah, I'm on my way to the hospital. I wanted him to pray over me before we got there. And my assistant at my law office came out and said, oh, I can do that.

[20:02] And so she prayed over her. And so you develop these relationships even years later, where people are coming by asking you to pray over them before they're going to the hospital,

[20:13] you're meeting their children,

[20:14] you're there.

[20:15] Their victory when they get a new promotion at work.

[20:18] And you have these amazing, you know, relationships that develop.

[20:21] But then oftentimes there's enormous tragedies too. You know, there's situations of people who don't, who don't, you know,

[20:29] they're not able to stick with it. They, they, they relapse. Their life pulls them back in. They get in the wrong circle. And, and you know, and drug overdoses are so they, they happen and it's just tragedy and it rips your heart out because you love these people and you genuinely do.

[20:44] And one of two things,

[20:46] and I often counsel with people who are, who are working in the recovery ministry when they face that for the first time. One or two things is about to happen.

[20:54] You're about to say, I can't handle this pain and you're going to walk away.

[20:58] Or you're going to say, I see the result of what happens when we're not there.

[21:03] What happens if we don't pour into these people.

[21:06] And that's why you answer the phone at 2 o' clock in the morning when it rings, you know, you, you either recognize that, that opportunity, this is a real battle that we're fighting.

[21:14] This is a real situation.

[21:16] Drugs and alcohol, I mean, you don't have to do anything but watch the local news to know the impact is making in our community, in our homes. You know, I often say that addiction is not a sniper.

[21:27] It doesn't like shoot an individual person.

[21:29] It's a hand grenade that gets thrown into the living rooms in America and it impacts every single person in the room and it causes damage. So we have to be willing to help heal the moms, the dads, the, the moms who are staying up, you know, one o' clock in the morning praying that their child gets arrested so at least they'll know he's alive.

[21:46] The, the wives who say, what happened to my husband? Is he even still in there anymore? You have to work with them at the same time that you're working with people going through, through recovery.

[21:56] It has to be this idea of Soza. That's what the Bible calls it, right? The word that the Bible uses. And it means healed, it means restored, it means brought back, complete, made whole.

[22:06] And that's really what we're trying to do. We're not just looking for sobriety, we're looking for making people whole. And there's only one way to do that. And his name's Jesus Christ.

[22:15] And that's the only way that I've ever seen that wholeness come to somebody.

[22:20] So that's what, that's the only approach that, that I've seen bring that, that whole healing. I often say, and it's something I read years ago, you know, and I believe it's true that that trauma, that pain that's inside of people that they're trying to numb, it's a, it's a hole in their heart and it's a God shaped hole and only God fills it.

[22:38] You know, we can try to fill other things into that hole and think that we're doing well, whether it's relationships or you can pursuit of success or,

[22:45] you know, anything else. But it's not going to fill it, it's not going to match it as a God shaped hole. And it requires God in order to, to feel that.

[22:53] Jan: Yeah, yeah. I interviewed Shirley Yates and her husband who have had a lifetime jail ministry, prison ministry and just the stories that they have of the people, you know, the contacts they've had and whatever, it's just like,

[23:07] just so, so brought so much joy to them, you know.

[23:11] Brett: Yes,

[23:12] we, I get to help.

[23:14] That's the great thing about being an attorney, is it? I get invited into rooms that often people aren't invited.

[23:19] Conversations with judges and sheriffs and things like that. And so I get to help open up those doors for prison ministry or jail ministries to start.

[23:27] I so wish I could be a jail minister. I so wish that I could walk into jails and do that. I'm, I'm envious of people who get to do that because I get to hear the stories and I get so excited hearing about them.

[23:38] I've gone in a few times to celebrate graduations and things,

[23:42] but I'm, I'm actually A distraction, I realize, and that's why I can't. I. I walk in, and it is fun, and I get to be a part of it. But as soon as they find out that I'm a criminal defense attorney, all of a sudden they want legal advice,

[23:53] and I'm like, okay, I got to go. You know, now we're not talking about the Bible study anymore, and I got to get out of here.

[23:58] Jan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[24:00] It's.

[24:02] Yeah. I mean, still writing letters and doing, you know, just all the things. So, yeah, it's such a. And they're. That. What a neat couple. Anyway,

[24:11] these have people like that.

[24:13] So what would you say to.

[24:17] What is the thing that. That keeps people being.

[24:22] Who. Who have friends, family members, and whatever that keeps them going?

[24:27] Because it takes a lot of patience and a lot of,

[24:29] you know, to do that.

[24:31] What's something that helps with that?

[24:34] Brett: When.

[24:34] When somebody who. They have a loved one who's. Who's going through addiction, the. The best thing and the. The first thing I can say to them is that they're still in there.

[24:44] They. They do recover.

[24:46] They can recover. They can overcome this.

[24:49] And then. And then there's. There's some things that we need to know if we're walking with people who are in active addiction. Things like, you know, boundaries. You know, tough love.

[24:57] I get asked oftentimes, tough love, should I just have tough love? And.

[25:02] And oftentimes, and I dedicated a whole chapter in my book to just talking about that because it's so important,

[25:09] because as Christians,

[25:10] my belief is, as Christians, we don't have an option of tough love, not in the sense of what most people mean when they say that. Because most people. What they mean when they say that is that cut them off.

[25:20] Like, cut them emotionally and physically off.

[25:23] And I don't believe, as Christians, that we are allowed to do that with people who. Now, we surely can have boundaries, and we surely can put safe boundaries for ourselves, other people, and that person who's going through addiction.

[25:36] But to simply cut somebody off and say, that's it. You've met. You've. Twice. I try. I helped you twice. And now I'm done with you. Because I don't know about your walk with the Lord, but in my walk with the Lord, I fall often.

[25:49] And he doesn't. He hasn't ever once said, that's it. I'm cutting you off. Tough love. Brett,

[25:54] you know, he's always been there. He's always pursued me, and we're called to act accordingly. So the first thing I say about tough love is it can't mean cutting them off.

[26:03] It can't mean emotionally cutting them off. Sometimes it means taking a step back for your own health and your own. Your own mental health and your own ability to restore yourself.

[26:12] Sure, you have to be able to do that. Sometimes it means putting up boundaries to protect other loved ones. For example, if I still have a.

[26:20] A teenage child at home, and I have an adult child who's in active addiction, and they come over and they're wanting to come, and I need a place to stay tonight, well, the answer might not be, well, come on into your old room.

[26:32] Because I might know from previous experience that that person, you know, they might become violent, they might have other issues going on whenever they're in an addiction,

[26:41] and I'm trying to protect my other child from witnessing that or taking part in that. So maybe the answer becomes, you can't stay here, but I can help you find a place you can stay.

[26:50] You know, maybe it becomes something like that.

[26:52] You know, sometimes we have to do what's best for the person who's in addiction, and that means putting up boundaries. You know, if. Same scenario, my. My adult son comes to me and says, I'm hungry.

[27:01] I've not eaten. Eaten in two days. Can you give me $20 to go buy some food? The answer probably should not be, here's $20.

[27:09] But it might be, I've got food right here. Would you come in here and eat?

[27:13] Or I can take you to the grocery store. We can buy you groceries. I can have food delivered to you. Where are you at? You know, there can be other answers, but they're within these boundaries.

[27:22] And so teaching people who have loved ones who are walking through addiction, you know, those are some of the things that we talk about. And it was one of the main focuses I had with the book that I wrote.

[27:33] I never had an idea of writing a book. Never even crossed my mind.

[27:36] You know, I look at people like you who you've written your whole life, right?

[27:41] Jan: Yeah, pretty much, yeah.

[27:42] Brett: You've been writing, and this comes natural for you. It didn't. It didn't for me, but I knew that. I knew that there were moms and dads and people who loved people who are in active addiction, and they needed some of these answers to help understand.

[27:56] And then I also knew that there were people who are in active addiction or wanting to go to recovery, that they needed some hope.

[28:02] And then I also knew. The last third of the book is dedicated to people in the community, people in the Churches that, you know what, sometimes we need a fire lit under us to go in there and become part of the solution.

[28:13] And so all of those areas are hit. But when it comes to, like, family members or loved ones, you know, there's, there's information that needs to be shared because so often, you know, dad's sitting in my office saying,

[28:25] you know,

[28:26] why are they choosing to do this?

[28:28] You know, and they just don't understand the decision making process that's going on with somebody who's an active addiction. Or they showed up to Thanksgiving dinner and made a mess of things.

[28:36] Are they trying to punish me for something I did? Like, well, I hate to tell you this, but they weren't even thinking of you,

[28:41] that you, you were not in their thought process at that time. You know, it wasn't personal.

[28:46] And so walking with people through that is important. Just sharing that information. And ultimately that's why I wrote a book. Because I realized I had information that families were literally dying for and to be able to share it in a format that I could get it in the hands of people that I'd never meet.

[29:01] Jan: Yeah, yeah.

[29:02] Brett: And the title of the book, From Gavel to Grace. From the Gavel to Grace.

[29:06] Jan: And where's it available?

[29:08] Brett: It's available. You can, you can get it on Amazon in every format that's possible.

[29:12] Paper bag, hardback, Kindle, audiobook. If they had a carrier pigeon version, I would have done that one too. But they didn't.

[29:20] So it's on Amazon. If you just gout from the Gavel to Grace or Brett Knight, you'll find it there. It's also on my website. If you go to my website.

[29:28] Www.brettknight.com forward slash book. I have a whole book section. The little links on there, you can just click on the link and go to go to get it.

[29:37] But you know, the,

[29:38] it's, it's something that, the whole process of writing this book, you know,

[29:43] I wrote it, I thought, well, I hope it lands in the hands of some people,

[29:47] but that's not how God operates sometimes. And you know, I wrote this book and then I went through the process. I finished the manuscript in October, and I thought, okay, I'll have this out before Christmas.

[29:59] That's not how it works either. It took me a lot longer to edit and to do all of that stuff.

[30:05] It came out, it came out the end of May,

[30:08] but when I released it, I thought, okay, I'll get this in the hands of a few people and it'll be a good resource for some Some places. But, you know, in the first few weeks it came out, it was number one on Amazon's new release.

[30:19] It. It got in the hands of thousands of people that I never even thought of. Places I never even thought of. It's in 16. I've had 16 county sheriffs that have now placed the book into their jail library for people who are incarcerated.

[30:33] Jan: Yeah.

[30:33] Brett: You know, it just landed places that I never, never even dreamed of.

[30:38] Jan: Yeah.

[30:38] Brett: And so it's been. It's been a blessing to just be able to share this information with family members, with people who are looking for hope, or, you know, ministries or organizations that are saying, what can we do?

[30:49] What can we do to be a part of the solution.

[30:52] Jan: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, it's. I'll put links in the show notes for that, too. And gosh, this has just been so informational and inspiring.

[31:03] Brett: Well, thank you.

[31:04] It inspires me every day to get up, that I get up. And. And I love practicing law and I love the opportunities it presents. But there's. I mean, I get up and I'm like, lord, what do you got for me today?

[31:16] Jan: What are you.

[31:16] Brett: What are you going to put in front of me today? It's like I'm on. On a, you know, a hunt, a scavenger hunt that I gotta. I don't know what he's put out there for me, but it's going to be fun.

[31:25] Jan: But, you know, it's going to be good.

[31:26] Brett: It's going to be good. And he's provided for it, so I'm okay.

[31:30] Jan: Absolutely. Thank you, Brett, so much.

[31:33] Brett: Well, thank you for having me on here and thank you for all that you're doing, spreading this good word around the country.

[31:39] Jan: Yeah, yeah. Just trying to do what God wants me to do. Just talking about Jesus.

[31:44] Brett: Talking about Jesus. I love that. I love. I love the title. Just Talking about Jesus. I love it.

[31:49] Jan: Okay.