Built After 9/11: How Clatsop County Prepared for the Next Emergency with Margo Lalich

In this second conversation on emergency management, Jan sits down with Margo Lalich, a public health leader with more than 30 years of experience. 

Margo was Clatsop County's first public health preparedness coordinator, hired in 2002, and later served as interim public health director during the COVID-19 response.

Margo explains how 9/11 pushed the federal government to invest in public health infrastructure, and how that money reached small coastal communities. She walks through the county's early full-scale exercises, regional planning with neighboring counties, and the incident command structures that paid off during the pandemic.

 She also shares lessons from the 2007 coastal gale, including power outages that left pharmacies without access to medications.

Her main message is that relationships matter more than money. Margo also covers what happens when federal funding shrinks, how planning has to include older adults and people with disabilities, and why a binder full of plans is no substitute for practiced protocols. 

She closes with ways listeners can get involved through county volunteer programs, Community Emergency Response Teams (CERT), and the Medical Reserve Corps.

Chapter markers

00:00 Welcome and Part Two Setup
 01:36 Public Health After 9/11
 03:07 Bioterrorism Funding Reaches Clatsop County
 05:16 Oregon's Own Bioterrorism History
 05:49 Regional Planning and Full-Scale Exercises
 08:30 Incident Command and Shrinking Federal Funding
 09:34 Training, Storms, and the 2007 Coastal Gale
 10:48 Putting Decades of Planning to Work in COVID-19
 14:03 How 9/11 Became a Catalyst for Cooperation
 15:22 Camp Rilea and the Community Pandemic Response
 16:05 Tsunamis, Cascadia, and Lessons from the Gale
 17:55 Staying Resilient When Funding Shrinks
 20:24 Planning for Older Adults and People with Disabilities
 21:40 How to Get Involved: Volunteers, CERT, and the Medical Reserve Corps
 24:42 Community-Led Preparedness on the North Coast
 26:41 Plans vs. Protocols: What Works on the Ground
 28:04 Every Community Is Different
 29:26 Closing Thoughts
 30:01 Outro: Sharing the Episode

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Find me on my website: jan-johnson.com

Transcript

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[00:01] Jan: Are you looking for an inspiring listen, something to motivate you? You've come to the right place. Welcome to Women of the Northwest where we have conversations with ordinary women leading extraordinary lives.

[00:12] Motivating, inspiring, compelling.

[00:19] Jan: Okay, welcome everybody to this episode of Women of the Northwest. Ordinary women leading extraordinary lives. I have Margo Alelich with me today. Welcome, Margot.

[00:30] MARGO: Thank you.

[00:31] Jan: Last week or a week before, I don't know, I lost track of time. Last episode was on emergency management and we had a conversation with four of us at the time.

[00:43] But Margo has a lot of experience in emergency management,

[00:48] a lot of history there. And so I thought it would be great for her to be able to have a part two on this and just expanding,

[00:56] expounding on what,

[00:57] just how like 901, 911 played into this or how Covid played into what we've learned about how to deal with things. So does that sound good, Margo?

[01:08] MARGO: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's a nice opener.

[01:12] Jan: Yeah. So let's. Yeah,

[01:14] so you have like a lot of years experience working in this type of arena. Whatever. So yeah,

[01:22] show us 911 of course just happened and then.

[01:26] And absolutely so many things that who ever would have thought of the catastrophic things that had to happen to. To make sense out of all of that?

[01:36] MARGO: Yeah, well, you know, I think that context is always important and history can provide perspective on what we're doing in the present and why we're doing it and also find us in very unprecedented times as well.

[01:54] And so my career has been in public health and in healthcare and I was working in public health when 911 happened. And I think it's very relevant, particularly because, you know, we just had the 25th anniversary of 911 is that public health has had a significant role in two of the emergency support functions.

[02:16] In fact, it was the lead entity for two of the emergency support functions in both the federal, the state and a local emergency operations plans.

[02:26] But what we learned with 911 is that public health was needed to step in for many different reasons. We're still doing a lot of epidemiological studies on the long term health effects from 9 11,

[02:39] but also then the threat of bioterrorism.

[02:43] And public health had been underfunded or not funded at all for decades.

[02:49] And it was 911 that made the federal government realize that we have to build this infrastructure that has a significant and important responsibility to the health and safety of all citizens.

[03:07] And so a lot of money went into public health and part of that went into bioterrorism. Planning because of anthrax and other threats, smallpox. And so the money was passed through into local communities and counties across the country, including Clatsop county.

[03:26] And it was funded. There was emergency operations plan that was funded and to address bioterrorism.

[03:33] But public health received funding to have a public health preparedness coordinator,

[03:39] something that public health had never had.

[03:41] Jan: Right.

[03:42] MARGO: Always done communicable disease investigations. And we still do that to this day.

[03:46] So I was the first public health preparedness coordinator to be hired in 2002 in Clatsa county,

[03:53] and I spent 13 years. I was also a public health director, but I folded that role into my public health role, director role later on to develop all of those emergency operations plans for public health that were annexes to the county emergency operations plan.

[04:12] And back then,

[04:13] emergency operations was in the sheriff's office.

[04:16] What we have in terms of infrastructure now at our county is so much more significant and a value and asset to the community than what existed back then.

[04:28] Right. You have to build these things over time. And our current, you know, county leadership is just very supportive of emergency operations,

[04:36] I think,

[04:37] too.

[04:37] Jan: Doesn't happen, you know, like, let's say you have nine, 11.

[04:41] Well, nothing like that ever happened here on the state. And so all of a sudden it opens all these questions about, oh, what do we do here, what do we do there?

[04:48] You know.

[04:49] So you're creating new avenues of.

[04:54] MARGO: Absolutely. The bioterrorism for sure, because we didn't used to look at smallpox as a form of bioterrorism. It was just a endemic communicable disease that we were vaccinated for.

[05:05] Right,

[05:06] Anthrax. Right. We had the cases of anthrax. Not something. There are cases of anthrax. But in this particular situation, it was a form of bioterrorism.

[05:16] And, you know, many people don't remember, but when the first kind of bioterrorism that we remember in Oregon and that was identified nationally was with the Rajanishes, when they were in the gorge trying to control the elections and they infected the salad bars with salmonella so that people would be able to get to the polls to vote.

[05:39] Right.

[05:40] People don't remember that publicly as a possibility.

[05:46] Jan: Right, right.

[05:49] MARGO: So over these decades, well, over that time period,

[05:53] you know, we were very closely monitored. There were people at the state level who were liaisons,

[05:58] the Oregon Health Authority, the public health Division, everyone was building these infrastructures that did not exist.

[06:07] Very good at epidemiology, very good at communicable disease.

[06:10] But really looking at it from a fine tuned interagency kind of unified command response.

[06:18] When we have these events, whether it's a natural disaster, which has health and medical implications, as you discussed in the last episode,

[06:26] or we have a pandemic. Right. It could be a myriad of scenarios.

[06:31] And so we not only developed the planning,

[06:36] we conducted really quite extraordinary full scale exercises in this county. And in fact,

[06:42] it got quite a bit of media attention at the time. Sheriff Reichel, I was working with him,

[06:47] we had partners, we partner with nursing schools. It was before we had easy access to cell phones. And we brought a van out to Camp Riley that was a satellite van and used that to hook up laptops to run large vaccination clinics to see if we could get connectivity.

[07:07] Right. We developed a mass transportation plan with the school districts and wouldn't allow anyone to drive to these mass clinics.

[07:14] So you're talking this was back before 2010,

[07:17] right? Long before we had this pandemic that we recently had, among other events.

[07:23] And so we learned from every one of these exercises and we really learned how to work together from an interagency perspective.

[07:32] And we just kept evolving and practicing and evolving our plans and being evaluated. And we did regional plans, we did regional exercises, we worked with the state, we worked with Multnomah county because emergency planning was regional as well, not only for emergency operations plans, but for public health planning as well.

[07:55] So we were folded into the metro region, Tillamook County, Columbia County.

[08:00] And so what happened is that instead of just having these isolated plans,

[08:05] there was this recognition that we really need to just do all hazards planning. And within this all hazards planning, we will incorporate everything from pandemic influenza planning to a radiological event to bioterrorism.

[08:20] Right. To fire. Now we're looking at climate change within the context of, of environmental health because there are public health implications to that in many different ways.

[08:30] So it's evolved and you know, public Health developed its own incident command system.

[08:36] So we would apply that much similar to incident command and you know, emergency operations and fire.

[08:44] But it was distinctly different. The structure in, within Public Health, but it allowed for unified command structures and,

[08:52] and it just continued to evolve. And then as happens, you know, programs start to lose money, which is exactly what happened with the public health preparedness program.

[09:03] What is received from the federal government has decreased over the last many years. It's pretty minimal now.

[09:11] Which then requires that reevaluation of what is the best way to kind of structure a public health preparedness coordinator, particularly when the funding isn't even enough for a full time position.

[09:23] And so the county, you know, they folded it back into their emergency operations team,

[09:28] which makes sense.

[09:29] And so it allows them to be more integrated.

[09:34] And so it's happened at the federal level. I spent quite a bit of time at the center for Domestic Preparedness.

[09:41] Lots of training over those years,

[09:43] incredible training opportunities with all of our school districts. And then while we were developing our emergency infrastructure, so were the hospitals.

[09:52] So we were all learning,

[09:54] training,

[09:55] planning, and exercising together.

[09:57] Right. And then we tap into aspects of it,

[10:01] you know, whether it's a natural disaster, a storm.

[10:05] You know, we've been through the floods, we've been through the gale of, what was it, 2007? I mean, I remember that so distinctly because I was in the EOC Emergency Operations center at that time,

[10:16] but I lived in Cannon Beach. And so just to be able to access and get out of town.

[10:21] Jan: Right.

[10:22] MARGO: And so in public health, we also trained ham operators. And so I don't know if that still exists. It wasn't.

[10:30] Jan: It doesn't.

[10:31] MARGO: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we have it throughout the county, but we routinely exercise that. And,

[10:37] you know, we had an antenna, we set it up. That's when we put in all our generators and public health to make sure that our vaccines would maintain their integrity if there was an extended power outage.

[10:48] And so when the pandemic happened,

[10:51] while, you know,

[10:52] plans were in place,

[10:54] you know, that's where I think that historical context can be so important because it provides that framework. It's that scaffolding.

[11:04] And I think when the pandemic first was coming to life and I was working actually in another state at that time,

[11:12] you know, it was a little bit rough going here in Clatsop County. This has still been my home. I was just on a contract somewhere else.

[11:19] And part of it is, I think over those years, I was away for about 10 years that there was.

[11:27] While the infrastructure was there, there wasn't anyone to educate themselves about what had been,

[11:34] what was the history,

[11:36] what can we take from that to apply it to the present moment?

[11:40] And so it was a little bit, I think, from what I understand, a little bit rough getting going first. And thank goodness the hospitals were so well exercised and in tune and kind of took the lead initially on some of the clinical operations,

[11:52] and then I returned on an interim basis.

[11:55] And we were just able to tap into again those decades of planning and exercising and preparedness,

[12:03] knowing that at some point something would happen,

[12:06] a pandemic would come. They said it would, and it did.

[12:10] And then we just fine tuned it. And for me, and I'VE talked to some of my colleagues who,

[12:16] you know, were part of the post 911 work, right, which was with OHSU and developing the whole HOSCAP system, which was an online system to monitor the status of hospitals,

[12:29] the Health Alert Network system, All of this was developed post 9 11.

[12:34] Now it's much more sophisticated. It's integrated into routine operations. But back then,

[12:40] we were the generation that was building this whole infrastructure and many are still around.

[12:46] But to witness it during the pandemic, for whatever criticisms people have about the pandemic and certain policy decisions that were made,

[12:55] you know, in various sectors and levels of government,

[12:59] to witness the response and how the development of those infrastructures came together.

[13:08] And they worked.

[13:10] They worked at the state level with the Oregon Health Authority and the Public Health Division and the Incident Command System and the Interagency Unified Command.

[13:19] They worked in the relationship between the state and local.

[13:24] And, you know, I can't speak for all counties,

[13:27] but for our county it worked really, really well once some of the kinks got worked out.

[13:33] You know, just when I, as the interim public health director during this response, even with Public Health and emergency operations and others, our board of county commissioners, a designated individual, you know, we had an incident management team and we met routinely and it was very, very structured.

[13:52] And so it allowed us to get status reports, it allowed us to make real time decisions and constantly be in that cycle of evaluation, evaluation, evaluation.

[14:03] And so Without,

[14:05] I mean, 911 was horrific, right? And the best thing was that it would never have happened.

[14:11] But it did happen.

[14:13] And because it happened,

[14:15] it was the catalyst for developing all of these systems and platforms and relationships and interagency planning and coordination that never would have happened that way. Everybody still would have been working much more in their silos.

[14:32] And so I just think, you know, when I thought about 9 11,

[14:36] where I was one of those events, right,

[14:40] how our systems evolved since then, reflecting back and then also again looking at,

[14:47] you know, what's happening in the health and medical and public health realm in present time.

[14:53] There will always be something.

[14:55] There will always be something.

[14:57] And so the most important thing is the relationships we have with one another and the ability to communicate and coordinate with one another. And I mean, just the way we used Camp Riley during the pandemic and having emergency operations out there and being able to have our, set, our comm center there operational seven days a week and to have our drive by clinics.

[15:22] And then when we initially set up our,

[15:25] our, our clinic, when we started getting medication, outpatient to start treating people with symptoms of COVID Right. And Columbia Memorial Hospital and Providence, we all worked together to set out a.

[15:37] Set up a clinic out there.

[15:40] All of that,

[15:41] in my opinion, again, I have this historical perspective now. 25 years.

[15:46] Jan: Right.

[15:47] MARGO: It was all an extension of that. And while some of the same people are around,

[15:53] there's new people, but they've come into these systems that have since been.

[15:57] Been built.

[15:58] Jan: Right.

[15:59] MARGO: And I think in the end, it's all about the health and safety of the community.

[16:04] Jan: Yeah, yeah,

[16:05] yeah. And I think.

[16:07] Well, all of that, I'm sure, has played into the whole tsunami things, you know, like knowing how to be ready and prepared for all of that as well.

[16:17] Even as far as moving to schools or doing, you know.

[16:20] MARGO: Absolutely. It's all part of it. It's all part of it. And watching the whole infrastructure develop around Cascadia and earthquakes and then witnessing.

[16:30] Jan: Right.

[16:30] MARGO: These tsunamis in other parts of the world and the devastation. And within that, there's the health and medical.

[16:36] Jan: Right.

[16:36] MARGO: There's the public works and the infrastructure. There's the public health aspect of it, which is, you know, waterborne illness and compromised sanitation and foodborne illness and communic diseases depending upon where you're living and,

[16:51] you know, you know, vectors that contribute to disease and then having access to medication. I mean, one of the things that we learned in the coastal gale and in our community debriefings was that the power, with the power outages,

[17:08] the pharmacies had transitioned to electronic access to medications,

[17:14] but they didn't have generators.

[17:16] And so then they couldn't get access to the medications that people needed.

[17:21] And so I remember distinctly to going to some of the debriefs and that was one of the things that came up and prioritizing those who are on dialysis.

[17:29] Jan: Right.

[17:30] MARGO: Making sure that they would be able to continue their dialysis in event with an extended power outages.

[17:37] So now lots of places have generators, but post 911 hospitals did, but not a lot of other folks, including public health.

[17:47] And it was the money that came from the federal government,

[17:50] passed through the state.

[17:51] We would get grants.

[17:53] And so.

[17:54] Jan: Yeah.

[17:55] So how do you see in our current climate as it is, where blue states are not receiving the funding that they should.

[18:05] How.

[18:06] What's the new avenue to be able to work around that and make things still work, being the resilient people that we are.

[18:16] Right.

[18:17] MARGO: I think it's a few things. I think that, you know, we tend to default to money.

[18:22] Yes. It's a vital resource as being the solution to everything when in fact it's Just part of the solution.

[18:30] Right. The most important thing in my 30 plus year experience is in the relationships that we cultivate in our ability to communicate and collaborate and work together. And that's why these exercises that we did were so important.

[18:45] And we did some pretty elaborate exercises at the convention center with school districts and students, and we did radiological exercises and decontamination exercises out in community hospitals. You know, this is part of just their routine operations now and their, their exercises.

[19:05] So I think that's really, really important.

[19:08] You know,

[19:09] Clatsip counting counties are not required to fund local public health. And most people don't know that.

[19:15] Most of the money that public health receives is federal monies for different grants and it passes through the state and it comes to the local public health. Although in Oregon, many years ago, we passed the Public Health Modernization act and with that came significant funding.

[19:33] And some of that is dedicated to public health preparedness so that we're not dependent just on the federal government for funding.

[19:42] I think the infrastructure has, is,

[19:45] has aged enough. Right. It's sophisticated enough in Clatsup county that regardless of what the funding looks like,

[19:54] there will be innovative and creative problem solving.

[19:58] Jan: Right.

[19:58] MARGO: And this collaboration and you know, the different entities all work together now not only just in preparedness ways, but for the health and well being of the community. Right. Which is why there's the community health improvement plan,

[20:14] which, you know, doesn't necessarily prioritize public health preparedness specifically, but it's still woven into everything that,

[20:23] that we do.

[20:24] Jan: Right.

[20:24] MARGO: We have a significant aging population on the north coast.

[20:28] We have those living with developmental and intellectual disabilities. And when I was developing the original plans for the county, I did a lot of field work with this population,

[20:39] trying to develop ways in which we can create media and communicate. And it was a fascinating opportunity. And in fact,

[20:49] some of the work that was developed then was then adopted by other places outside of Oregon. Because I actually use those who are living in the community to help me understand what it is they understand about emergencies.

[21:01] Jan: Right.

[21:02] MARGO: So it requires that kind of, I think,

[21:05] exchange and reciprocity in the community. And I think we have that now in our community. And we just have to remember that we don't have to create everything over again.

[21:17] Sometimes we have to go back and look at what's existed and,

[21:23] and identify what has been advantageous, what has worked, what has been impactful, and how do we build on that and evolve it based upon either new requirements or,

[21:34] you know, what we've learned, for example, from the pandemic.

[21:37] Jan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[21:40] And what I,

[21:43] I'm just thinking about the person who is interested in this, but where, what are some resources that they could look at? I'm sure there's all kinds of things online or whatever too.

[21:53] But just to find out if somebody's interested in finding out more of, of what's available or how they could be involved in things, where would they go?

[22:02] MARGO: Well, if they're interested in volunteering, I believe that the county still has a volunteer coordinator and there's opportunities for,

[22:10] to volunteer in that way and see what departments are of interest and to be able to do that. You know, we had incredible volunteer corps that was mobilized and trained to assist with the pandemic response.

[22:22] And we had over 300 volunteers that showed up in different capacities, whether working in the communication center, responding and triaging phone calls or working in the vaccination clinics or directing traffic.

[22:35] Right. Doing mobile clinics with us. So, you know, people will step up given the opportunity. And there were also exceptions made depending upon people's licenses and who could vaccinate under these declarations of emergency versus under normal routine times, non emergent times.

[22:55] You know, communities have the community emergency response teams that exist in each of our communities. Cannon beach has a very robust CERT team.

[23:04] I don't know at this point. And again,

[23:08] these all came out post 911 as we were building various infrastructures and recognizing that yes, all of these entities can do many different things to assist in a community's response,

[23:22] but our individual and community preparedness is equally as important. Right. Which is why there's so much focus on that now.

[23:30] So there's CERT and then we have one Medical Reserve Corps and it's actually its home is in Cannon Beach. We have people from different parts of the county who participate in it.

[23:41] I've been in the Medical Reserve Corps since it launched and curiously the coordinator of that is the retired Director of Environmental Health from Multnomah county who was part of developing the whole infrastructure in Multnomah county,

[23:57] post 9 11.

[23:59] Right.

[23:59] So that expertise has been brought back to the community.

[24:03] And our MRC continually exercises and works together and trains and has meetings. And then we also have a veterinarian who oversees the,

[24:15] the dart, which is related to animals.

[24:18] Jan: Right.

[24:18] MARGO: In the community.

[24:19] And so,

[24:21] you know, again, all of these things, it's always evolving. Systems evolve and hopefully become more user friendly,

[24:29] more understandable by the general population.

[24:32] And you know, communities, they're community driven.

[24:35] Jan: Right.

[24:36] MARGO: It's community citizens who are wanting to make sure,

[24:42] knowing how isolated we can be here on the north coast to take care of it and kind of flipping over, but not to talk about it, really go into it.

[24:51] But my work with the North Coast EOL Collective as the founder,

[24:55] one of the communities that I've worked with the last couple years reached out and said, and it is a very, very isolated pocket of Tillamook County. Said,

[25:06] we moved here because we want to live here. We are an aging population,

[25:11] so how do we start developing a strategic plan so that we can age in place and prepare for end of life, which includes during a disaster.

[25:20] And so I worked with them for a couple years, and now it's formalized into their whole community association.

[25:26] They have a leadership team and they're doing all of their own work around that.

[25:31] And so I think this is part of how it happens is that we want to inspire communities to also have the initiative to come together and tap into our system resources when we need it,

[25:47] but also to create it from within our communities or within our homes.

[25:52] Jan: Yeah, yeah,

[25:53] that is really good.

[25:56] I mean, it's just good to know it's a secure feeling, you know, that there's so much available to help us figure out what to do and just be looking at those type of things.

[26:07] And then with new younger people coming up and thinking of ideas and jumping on board too, it's just all.

[26:14] Yeah,

[26:15] yeah.

[26:15] MARGO: And people, you know, move around. I mean, I credit Tiffany Brown, who was our emergency operations manager for many years, who did a lot to help develop the infrastructure and bring in grant funds to the county, and Dean Perez, who was the HR director for the county, who also was the commander for a while out of Camper Leah.

[26:35] And he was the, I believe, the emergency operations manager for a while as well. So,

[26:41] you know, every one of these iterations continues and helps to build the infrastructure. And I think for those who just want to know the status of the emergency operations plan,

[26:53] you know, one thing that we've learned is you can have really fancy plans in a binder or online,

[26:58] but when things really start to happen, rarely do people pull those binders off. Right.

[27:04] It's. It's really.

[27:06] There's the plans and.

[27:07] But then there are the protocols. And the protocols are like, what are we going to do? Feet on the ground to respond, and how are we going to activate these operations?

[27:15] And we had really clear communication protocols in public health that,

[27:23] interestingly enough, were developed in, well, exercise. And then they just started kind of developing a little bit of discoloration on the cork boards. Right. Because they weren't exercised every month, like they had been in the past,

[27:35] right. Through like the Health Alert Network and our internal communications and, you know, sometimes these real life events can also be exercises.

[27:43] Jan: Right.

[27:44] MARGO: We're always learning and taking that time to debrief. And I think any of us who have worked in this field long enough,

[27:51] we take our experience, our expertise from one place and we take it to the other. And some go from the local level and work at the state level. Some people come from municipal, large metro regions and then come to the local level.

[28:04] And one of the things you learn is it's not cookie cutter.

[28:07] It's very unique to the community. The priority of the communities and,

[28:12] you know, the politics,

[28:14] funding, all of it. Plats up county. You know, we're fortunate that the board of the county commissioners does believe in supporting public health,

[28:21] which is a wonderful thing.

[28:24] Public health is restructured again. It used to be part of a health and human services model, and then we kind of separated it all out so each entity could really strengthen itself.

[28:33] But now it's come back together under one kind of umbrella.

[28:37] There's good reasons for that. Right. It's part of community.

[28:40] And so I think it's always evolving. And if someone is interested in like, okay, well,

[28:48] what are the plans now? What, what's. How are they evolving? It's all public record,

[28:53] so if it's not posted somewhere,

[28:56] then,

[28:57] you know, they can reach out to emergency operations and ask them.

[29:02] And I do know, I believe it's still true.

[29:06] I can't say because I haven't been with Public Health the last few years. I was there on an interim basis,

[29:12] that those plans have to be submitted to the state for review because the requirements change,

[29:20] as they should, depending upon what the priorities are and the expectations are.

[29:26] Jan: Well, we are almost out of time,

[29:28] Margo. Thank you. This has been really educational and just to looking back, I think you're right, you know, to look at the history of things and see where we come and where we're at and just what worked then and what didn't work.

[29:42] Even learning from what didn't work,

[29:44] all of that is so.

[29:45] MARGO: Yeah, it's never perfect. There's always things to learn and improve.

[29:50] Jan: Always.

[29:51] MARGO: Yeah.

[29:51] Jan: Yeah.

[29:52] MARGO: Well, thank you for this opportunity. I appreciate reconnecting with you.

[29:56] Jan: Yeah, thank you.

[29:59] Jan: That's all for today.

[30:01] Did you know it's easy to share an episode with your friends when the podcast is open?

[30:06] Look for three dots,

[30:07] click on them and you'll see various options.

[30:10] You can download the episode, play it next or last,

[30:14] go to the show,

[30:15] save the episode or copy the link.

[30:18] Isn't technology amazing?

[30:21] Hey, I'm looking forward to you joining me next time.

[30:24] Jan: I hope you have a great week.